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Future of Text 10th Annual Symposium Chat Log

15:01:50 From Panda Mery : Hello
15:02:23 From Gyuri Lajos : Budapest
15:02:27 From David Lebow : Tallahassee, FL
15:02:28 From Conor : London, UK
15:02:28 From Panda Mery : In Seoul.
15:02:29 From Rafael Nepô : São Paulo, Brazil
15:02:29 From Frode Hegland : Wimbledon, UK (London)
15:02:30 From Luc Beaudoin : A flooded region
15:02:30 From Vint Cerf/Google : vint cerf – mclean, va
15:02:31 From Karl Hebenstreit Jr : Alexandria, VA
15:02:31 From Sam Winston : London
15:02:33 From Brendan Langen : Chicago, USA
15:02:34 From Mark Carranza : At in San Francisco
15:02:38 From David Millard : Wiltshire. UK
15:02:38 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : London (Kensington)
15:02:39 From Bob Horn : San Francisco
15:02:41 From Tim  : Oxford UK
15:02:43 From Ismail Serageldin : Alexandria , Egypt
15:02:46 From Keith Martin : London!
15:02:48 From Fabian Wittel : Munich, Germany
15:03:04 From Luc Beaudoin : Metro-Vancouver BC ( Pitt Meadows)
15:03:36 From Peter Wasilko : Westchester County, an hour north of New York City overlooking the Hudson River.
15:03:47 From Christopher Gutteridge : Southampton, Hampshire, UK.
15:03:52 From Crockford : California
15:04:02 From Mark Anderson : Mark Anderson: Portsmouth, UK (‘state’ Hampshire)
15:04:04 From Christopher Gutteridge : My state is “surprisingly sober”
15:04:18 From Gyuri Lajos  To  Frode Hegland(privately) : I’ll have too leave at 4:30 your time I hope there will be a recording on YouTube soon
15:11:44 From Bob Horn : is the Internet Archive involved in FoT?
15:14:37 From Mark Carranza : Hi Bob, not yet :)
15:19:24 From Rafael Nepô : Send us your thoughts for the community ›
15:20:05 From Mark Bernstein :
15:20:17 From Rafael Nepô : Thanks Mark
15:20:56 From Rafael Nepô : Send us your thoughts for the community ›
15:21:59 From Peter Wasilko : Can we have a copy of your slide deck?
15:24:12 From Rafael Nepô : Beautiful Work!
15:24:24 From Fabian Wittel : 🤩
15:24:52 From Eric Rangell : Reminds me of Doug Hofstadter’s text art
15:25:09 From Sam Winston : Thank you
15:25:14 From Peter Wasilko : Did you use LaTeX to produce this?
15:25:28 From Sam Winston : The type is done in indesign
15:25:52 From Sam Winston : Each is a text box hand rotated .. the collage work is hand cut
15:26:06 From David Felsmann : Looks great!
15:28:51 From Luc Beaudoin : To David’s question, cf. visual proofs and Aaron Sloman (Bham England)
15:31:00 From Barrie Robinson : Barrie Robinson here, thank you for the invite Frode. Sam, love your work. Feels very explorative. I’m currently based off the south coast of the UK. Esther, great to see you here!
15:31:52 From Brandel Zachernuk : I’m curious about the tangible, physical form of your work – how big is it in real space, how does that change your feeling of the work?
15:32:22 From Frode Hegland : Please try to use the raise hand thing if you don’t mind!
15:32:36 From Gyuri Lajos : “The Decorative is the Pupa form of Expression” and now you shown it the other way round, Thanks
15:33:16 From Eric Rangell : I find it interesting how standard texts are being used as material for new types of media  = example Emily Dickinson’s poetry being adapted by Apple TV to be accessible to teenagers – as long as the thread to the original is preserved I have no issue with such derivatives.
15:33:32 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : One picture reminded me of The Mouse’s Tail from Alice in Wonderland
15:34:36 From lesia tkacz : Just a comment – whilst in the throes of being obsessed with language (still am), I went to a Rene Magritte and Marcel Broodthaers exhibition, and was delighted to see how Broodthaers played with language/text. And I’m reminded of that play looking at your work. It’s interesting how you appear to be focusing on the related structure of words, rather than on their arbitrariness which is what I feel I am used to seeing in other works.
15:34:36 From Conor : Beautiful work Sam. Recommend the book Reading Cy Twombly by Mary Jacobus if you haven’t seen it before. All about the role that text and language in his paintings.
15:35:10 From Luc Beaudoin : the beauty of obliquity
15:36:46 From Alain Marsily / : About artist about language and text, I suggest to have a a look of Christian Dotremont (Belgium. Member of Cobra). A lot about text
15:38:46 From Mark Bernstein : Obliquity, not obloquy
15:40:32 From Barrie Robinson  To  Frode Hegland(privately) : Frode, forgive me if I switch back to just listening in and turn my video off. Today I needed to take my son to hospital (out patient appt), in Southampton funny enough. But very much wanted to join and hope to contribute in a more meaningful way going forth.
15:41:43 From Vint Cerf/Google : at some point it would be interesting to discuss GPT-3 and its implications
15:41:56 From lesia tkacz : Any other NaNoGenMo lovers here?
15:42:03 From Dr Sarah Walton : Very cool :)
15:42:12 From Rafael Nepô : Very very nice
15:42:37 From Alain Marsily / : Yes GPT-3 good idea
15:43:31 From Eric Rangell : Darius K. has worked with the DAT project on decentralized systems, as well as mastodon.
15:45:56 From Gyuri Lajos : Gratiotous pollution of the mind comes to mind
15:47:10 From Christopher Gutteridge :
15:47:31 From Gyuri Lajos :
15:47:52 From Gyuri Lajos : “why humans dream of
making intelligence artificial
instead of realising the relevance of
augmenting our own imperfect, yet beautiful, human intellect
philosophy of metacognition,
or in simpler words:
learning how to think”
15:48:00 From Gyuri Lajos :
15:48:00 From Sam Winston : @Jonathan .. in response to Alice Wonderland .. this plays with that a little
15:48:18 From Dr Sarah Walton : Fun idea
15:48:33 From Alain Marsily / : Not the generation of text but the reverse like Summly from d’Aloisio (bought by Yahoo) that trim text
15:49:01 From Frode Hegland : Nick is a real genus Alain :-)
15:49:20 From Eric Rangell : The effect of where people feel the AI really understands them and is helping them improve their lives is an interesting effect of a text corpus derived from conversations between the founder and her late friend.
15:51:11 From Sam Winston : This relates well to this..        Uncreative Writing
Managing Language in the Digital Age
Kenneth Goldsmith
15:51:28 From Dr Sarah Walton : Yes, the potential is cool. Today’s standards fall short
15:51:54 From lesia tkacz : As Kate Compton suggested in her PhD thesis, nobody reads the 50,000 words – the idea is rather is to take ‘snack sized’ portions of text to read, becuase the 50,000 words are often quite uniform (although you certainly can read 50,000 words as a sort of performance art piece)
15:52:39 From Peter Wasilko : That sounds like the old Programmer’s Apprentice Project from the MIT AI Lab way back in the day.
15:53:00 From Vint Cerf/Google : @peter – yes, forgot about that!
15:53:08 From Mark Carranza :
15:53:31 From Mark Carranza : As a programmer I create machines out of text :)
15:54:33 From Luc Beaudoin : Well, speaking of text. I love screen OCR tools like TextSniper for copying useful slides to my notes.
15:55:27 From David Felsmann : works
15:57:55 From Mark Carranza : A swarm of thoughts
15:59:38 From Dene Grigar : I would love to hear what insights you have gained from gathering this information—the thoughts in the swarm—and if it transformed the way you viewed the text the thoughts commented on.
15:59:59 From barbaratversky : Can’t see your visuals, the examples in the boxes are too small and there is too much wasted blue background
16:01:06 From lesia tkacz : As long as I feel that nobody else is spying on my thoughts a la google and amazon
16:01:28 From John Hockenberry : But there is no way to assure that
16:01:32 From Eric Rangell : I think personal curation is key, with machine suggestions of connections secondary.  Sharing of personal napkins in webs of trust is important for personal and group sense making.
16:02:52 From John Hockenberry : Text only works as open source…. Closed source is dialect… interesting but unavailable to the larger collective intelligence. Privacy is tribal.
16:02:53 From Gyuri Lajos : Can you add link to napkin please in the chat
16:03:10 From Alain Marsily / : About note connections, many apps available based on (roam research…)
16:03:15 From Mark Carranza :
16:03:52 From Vint Cerf/Google : background noise???
16:04:31 From John Hockenberry : Yay to Fabian, great stuff.
16:05:47 From Barrie Robinson : I’m very interested in collaborating with developers / computer scientists, I’m a designer and code,
16:06:20 From Mark Carranza : A public napkin to look at:
16:06:36 From Mark Carranza :
16:06:39 From Keith Martin : The examples of visual art created from text are very interesting, but for me they stray from the core point of text: the form purposely obscures the meaning. I have an interesting (to me) example of the halfway stage between text-for-reading and text-as-visual-art. The creator, a French design consultancy, calls this a ‘bookster’, and it is an entire novel typeset as a poster on one size of an A1 sheet. I have one framed here at home: Machiavelli’s The Prince. It is utterly readable (as long as your eyes are good enough) while being graphically strong enough to justify space in a frame on my wall.
16:08:16 From Sam Winston : Thanks Kieth .. this address some of your comments ..
16:08:29 From Sam Winston : Sorry …Keith
16:08:54 From David Lebow : See work of Chris north and the Gigapixel Lab at VTU on large arrays.
16:09:00 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : Could try a VR headset – potentially an infinite screen
16:09:25 From Luc Beaudoin : Luc P. Beaudoin @LucCogZest
16:09:27 From Eric Rangell : Very important to separate the data from the presentation to enable plug-in visualizations
16:09:39 From Gyuri Lajos :
16:09:46 From Luc Beaudoin : (also am
16:12:13 From David Felsmann : Great Luc, let’s stick our heads together soon…
16:12:30 From David Felsmann :
16:13:15 From Peter Wasilko : I hope we can get each speaker’s slide deck after!
16:14:18 From Waliya Yohanna : Hello everyone! I am Nigerian
16:14:39 From Peter Wasilko : We need Purple Numbers *in* our Diagrams!
16:15:34 From Gyuri Lajos : should not it be META-Diagramming?
16:15:51 From Gyuri Lajos : Bootstrap a self-improvement process
16:16:01 From Brandel Zachernuk : It’s also a large project, so a MegaMeta-diagram project at the least
16:16:38 From Gyuri Lajos : diagrams are but Viewspecs
16:16:45 From Daniel Norman : A diagram is a particular kind of graph projection mindful of certain elements of gestalt psychology.
16:17:43 From Bob Horn :
16:20:01 From Daniel Norman : All knowledge and conveyance thereof is about adjacencies in that graph. It logically follows that visual adjacencies should represent semantic adjacencies.
16:20:01 From Mark Carranza : Author Erik Davis (currently in the past highlighted the integration of text and image in medieval and alchemical texts
16:20:12 From Rafael Nepô : Reminds me of the work of Fritz Kahn
16:20:17 From Rafael Nepô :
16:20:24 From Eric Rangell : 100000 groups of 10 people, 1000 people organizing the  output of 100 groups…?
16:20:26 From Mark Bernstein : Are diagrams viewspecs? Or do view specs describe a desired diagram?
16:21:03 From Duke : diagram zoom out to simple, zoom into detail/complexity
16:21:12 From Gyuri Lajos : @Daniel Norman yes it’s all about adjacency and Symmathesy Mutual Learning
16:21:33 From Gyuri Lajos : And when you ad just one link the  entire world changes
16:22:19 From Karl Hebenstreit Jr : Argumentation mapping:
16:22:45 From Mark Carranza : An older term for images with text: “Illuminated manuscripts”
16:23:01 From John Hockenberry : nice
16:23:30 From Brandel Zachernuk : I would say that the authoring is essential, but would lay the blame much earlier than most – that movable type privileges the textual form in a way that is pretty hostile to the integration of diagrams. Having a fluid authoring environment that allows people to comfortably produce
16:23:36 From Fabian Wittel : Nice, thanks, looking at that one!
16:24:04 From Brandel Zachernuk : Text that can be read and parsed at the same time as drawings that can mean things is a necessary precondition for proper parity.
16:24:15 From Jack Park : argument mapping is distinct from both issue mapping and dialogue mapping.
16:24:26 From Frode Hegland : Indeed Jack
16:24:57 From Luc Beaudoin : There’s an AI researcher who was perhaps the first and still most dedicated classical AI researcher on diagrammatic/visual reasoning, which he unfortunately first referred to in terms of “ANALOGICAL REPRESENTATIONS”) : Aaron Sloman at U of Birmingham that I mentioned earlier. He was my thesis supervisor (1990-94, originally at Sussex).
[Sloman – Diagrams in the Mind?](
16:25:31 From Luc Beaudoin : so question is: is his work being consulted in this field?
16:26:22 From Daniel Norman : I would be curious to understand the group’s perspective on the boundary between “text” and other symbolic gestalts. Notwithstanding the particulars of Unicode, it seems an arbitrary distinction to me.
16:26:22 From Peter Wasilko : Feel free to connect with me in LinkedIn:
16:26:24 From John Hockenberry : Text already excludes empathy which grows out of affective interaction in face to face conversations
16:26:43 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : Re Turing’s last paper on morphogenesis, I was told about it by a biophysicist at Cambridge (Corpus Christi) the other day. He said it’s a masterpiece that hasn’t yet been fully appreciated & absorbed by his field.
16:26:53 From Karl Hebenstreit Jr : Thanks @Jack. I was just thinking I’d want to follow-up with you as I was hearing them mention argumentation mapping, and you appeared!   Need to follow-up with you on the distinctions as well as an update on my dissertation
16:26:58 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : He said it’s also unusually long for a paper
16:27:04 From Vint Cerf/Google : note popuilarity of infographics
16:27:33 From Mark Bernstein :
16:28:14 From Vint Cerf/Google : but, Bob – there is the popularity of graphic novels
16:28:16 From Luc Beaudoin : a good review of it [The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis on JSTOR](
16:28:16 From Jack Park : +1 @Mark
16:29:08 From Vint Cerf/Google : bob, where can I get the nuclear waste disposal diagram,?
16:29:46 From Frode Hegland : Why Vint, do you have nukes to dispose of?
16:29:49 From Frode Hegland : :-)
16:29:55 From Vint Cerf/Google : yes
16:29:55 From Eric Rangell : If we encourage consumers to contribute diagrams in their own personal/shared spaces with process for pulling in community contributions over time to extend a work and offer alternative visualizations of concepts
16:31:02 From Luc Beaudoin : The difficulty of understanding how we reason visually is underestimated
16:31:02 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : These days ‘text’ just means something you can easily type. Making the distinction from graphics fairly arbitrary.
16:31:04 From John Hockenberry : Well said
16:31:10 From Luc Beaudoin : text is a lot easier to reason with.
16:31:20 From Vint Cerf/Google : what to make of the popularity of short text (tweet) and short videos?
16:31:23 From Luc Beaudoin : but visual reasoning is much more challenging and hence fascinating
16:31:25 From Vint Cerf/Google : lack of time, mayhbe?
16:31:48 From Eric Rangell : Thinking about Ted Nelson’s slabs in Xanadu Space where text on slabs connected to other slabs using tetroids
16:31:58 From Mark Carranza : An arrow picture points better then the word arrow
16:32:00 From Luc Beaudoin : again : not all visual reasoning is *graphs*. Think : geometry
16:32:08 From Mark Bernstein : Very interesting account of early thought on text and image: THE RIDDLE OF THE ROSETTA
16:32:37 From Luc Beaudoin : ta: Mark: that’s very interesting
16:32:43 From lesia tkacz : Sorry I have to dash now. Really enjoyed this – thanks everyone and thanks Frode!
16:33:13 From Frode Hegland : Later!
16:33:39 From Gyuri Lajos : Great “Symposium” sorry I have to leave, looking forward to the recording, and be joining the session tomorrow. Thankyou all.
16:33:59 From Mark Bernstein : Lots of serious discussion, for example, of whether abstraction is possible in pictographic language. Also whether monosyllabic language could accommodate contingency.
16:34:00 From Brandel Zachernuk : I would argue the question of the difference between text and other symbols is only meaningful because of the technical implementation aspect we’re saddled with, just like the previously pivotal distinction between black and red text when physical ink mattered
16:34:09 From Eric Rangell : Murals as depictions one point of view of history by are explored in Apple TV’s Foundation – comments about choice of colors as a means of expression of subtle points by the painter
16:34:17 From Luc Beaudoin : re : THE RIDDLE OF THE ROSETTA, there’s a huge memetic / evolutionary angle here, which I think has practical implications
16:34:25 From Luc Beaudoin : (& gesture)
16:34:29 From Frode Hegland : Foundations is a great poetic example
16:34:38 From Karl Hebenstreit Jr : Engelbart Mural:
16:35:02 From Peter Wasilko : I once read that SpiderWart blooms will change color in the presence of elevated background radiation.
16:36:03 From Panda Mery :
16:36:03 From Frode Hegland  To  Wendy Hall(privately) : Can I call on you to speak soon?
16:36:13 From Frode Hegland  To  Pip Willcox (she/her)(privately) : Are you here can I call on you?
16:36:20 From Pip Willcox (she/her)  To  Frode Hegland(privately) : Hello. I’m here and fascinated but not able to join via audio.
16:36:27 From Frode Hegland  To  Pip Willcox (she/her)(privately) : Ok :-)
16:36:45 From Peter Wasilko : So many new books to hunt down.  Thanks for all the pointers.
16:36:56 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : We regard emojis as text currently, but not logos. But what about the Apple logo? It’s in Unicode so now it’s text
16:37:15 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : But not the Intel logo!
16:38:06 From Alain Marsily /  To  Frode Hegland(privately) : Frode, if you have some moments, I might present quickly Quidzi (to you) because we are giving some answers to some today topics. Many potentials even if we are just at the beginning with Quidzi. Just tell me
16:38:21 From Luc Beaudoin : I’d love to see that, Bob!
16:39:24 From Keith Martin : I guess the Apple logo in Unicode makes it a glyph, a text element of sorts. But is it actually text?
16:39:52 From Daniel Norman : Shared experience ~ Analogy -> Cognition
16:40:49 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : I think Unicode characters correspond pretty closely to text in the popular imagination. Partly because there’s a certain uniformity of size/shape
16:41:13 From Jack Park : The original Yahoo! search was a kind of curated folksonomy
16:41:51 From Keith Martin : But is a single glyph ‘text’? Even when it is a representation of a graphic, not even a textual element that makes up part of words?
16:42:14 From Mark Bernstein : !
16:42:45 From Vint Cerf/Google : this makes me think of hypercards….
16:42:58 From Rafael Nepô : It’s the new version of Hypercards Vint~ ;)
16:42:59 From Rafael Nepô : Hahaha
16:43:30 From Mark Bernstein : Also recalls ZigZag.
16:43:31 From Wendy Hall : I was just gong to say that.
16:43:39 From Luc Beaudoin : curated starting point. cool
16:44:34 From Peter Wasilko : Is there an embedding story for injecting cards into existing web sites?
16:44:47 From Rafael Nepô : Not yet Peter
16:44:57 From Rafael Nepô : But we have it on our list
16:45:18 From Peter Wasilko : Loop me in when you need a test user for that!
16:45:26 From Frode Hegland  To  Vint Cerf/Google(privately) : If we go over 15 mins can you stay?
16:45:36 From Duke : yes rafael i’d love to test:
16:45:41 From Frode Hegland  To  Vint Cerf/Google(privately) : Format changed to be more presentation and dialog
16:46:11 From Peter Wasilko : What I liked best about Hypercard was its notion of different interaction levels.
16:46:13 From Luc Beaudoin : I used Hypercard in 1989 as part of my honours thesis (along with Pascal). was on evolution of vision
16:46:48 From Jack Park :
16:46:55 From Peter Wasilko : I remember Object Pascal, that was a neat language.
16:47:25 From Eric Rangell : Notice the perspectives of a person with 40 years of study in a field and young people starting to work in the field.  Effective mentoring across generations presents unique communication issues and perceptual framework differences.
16:47:38 From Frode Hegland : Right ton Eric
16:48:18 From Mark Bernstein : In 1987, I was sitting at the first ACM hypertext conference and realized that the fellow inn the next seat was the legendary Bob Horn!
16:48:59 From Peter Wasilko : Where could I learn about the Research Excellence Framework, Wendy?  It sounds intriguing.
16:49:26 From Frode Hegland : It’s not Peter! (Wendy feel free to reply if you like…)
16:49:56 From David De Roure :
16:50:05 From Eric Rangell : Sounds like you want Ted Nelson’s Xanadu, Wendy.
16:50:23 From David De Roure : I remember that!  It was the panel about the 404
16:50:30 From Peter Wasilko : Thanks for the link, David!
16:50:35 From Pol Baladas/ : Wish we could have Ted here with us today
16:50:38 From Rafael Nepô : if anybody wants to reach out.
16:51:24 From Frode Hegland  To  David Lebow(privately) : Ready for a 5 min presentation?
16:51:25 From Luc Beaudoin : true. reinventing. Mark Bernstein mentioned a paper I had not read, 1989, by Amy  Pearl , that’ ssuper pertinent to what I’ve been doing since 2001
16:51:45 From Peter Wasilko : What ever became of Hyper-G?
16:52:17 From Barrie Robinson : Does anyone have any thought on the rigidity of text? For example, as a creative director, I am often presented reports as fact with very little interpretation. This usually presents a challenge whereby I have to help a client walk back and rethink.
16:52:28 From Mark Anderson : <cough> Microcosm isn’t entirely dead:
16:53:28 From Wendy Hall : Amy Pearl’s work on “open hypermedia systems” was one of our key inspirations for Microcosm.
16:53:50 From Wendy Hall : I think there is a version of Hyper-G still running at Graz
16:54:05 From Eric Rangell : Ted just wanted to build what he wanted.  He had a specific vision that came out of his experiences.  All his writings are seeds for us to sow if we want to.
16:54:08 From Mark Anderson : I’m hoping to try and design some teaching content for the above to allow learning/resaerach /exploration in a non-Web space.  Not a binary good/bad, but hypertext done differently (Of course Microcosm pre-dates current networked working).
16:54:15 From Wendy Hall : And we definitely still have a working version of Microcosm thanks to Mark and others at Southampton
16:54:16 From Barrie Robinson : Could the person who was talking about creating a book (from Southampton) please send me a linked in request /uxrobinson, I’d be keen to help with your book
16:54:36 From Frode Hegland : Please feel free to introduce yourself here in chat, who you are, what you are working on and what you are interested in. It will go into the book.
16:54:42 From Duke : rafael, re hypercard, stacking looked cool (prioritizing high value cards on “top” of “3d” stack
16:55:12 From Rafael Nepô : We plan to use the Z axis for History and Changelog
16:55:13 From Luc Beaudoin : @Raffel , I know someone who is starting a company in personalized search. I can connect you.
16:55:21 From Daniel Norman : Daniel Norman here.
16:55:34 From Mark Bernstein : Keep in mind: you can reimplement any of the pioneering systems by reading the manuals, in remarkably little time. A summer project!
16:55:40 From Rafael Nepô : I’d love to Luc, please
16:55:45 From Daniel Norman : Lol. No carriage returns here. Disregard ^
16:55:52 From Vint Cerf/Google : I need to drop off for another meeting in a few moments
16:57:08 From Eric Rangell : Eric Rangell, Pennsylvania, researching how Ted Nelson’s ideas/data structures can be carried forward to decentralized web technologies.
16:57:45 From Vint Cerf/Google : departing – thanks for a great discussion – took many notes.
16:57:46 From Daniel Norman : – Working on symbolic analogical hypergraph knowledge representations, graph drawing (text/visual rendering) and Interpersonal knowledge management.
16:59:44 From Jack Park :
17:00:44 From Fabian Wittel : Got to run on time – thanks everyone, see you soon!
17:00:55 From Jean-Francois Vallee : Jean-François Vallée. Just a comp lit PhD and prof interested in the future of text. I’ve done some digital editing (e. g. of a French Renaissance satirical dialogue: a TEI/XML encoded edition and a web WP version with notes and potential interaction with ). Looking for ways of making writing/reading more dialogical. Honored to be listening to such luminaries…
17:01:29 From Wendy Hall : @Barrie I’m Wendy Hall from Southampton thinking about using my multimedia archive of my work at Southampton over the years as the basis for a “book” but it can’t be a traditional book. Maybe I can produce it using Visual-Meta. I don’t really do Linked-In. You could email me
17:01:33 From Rafael Nepô : This is amazing hahaha
17:02:07 From Frode Hegland : I love this Dave, all the way back to Linnaeus!
17:03:32 From Brandel Zachernuk :, I mostly use Twitter to list my work – I’m exploring how to express and consume information based on the new and emerging capabilities of technology, and trying to integrate more of how we understand what we know about human perception and cognition, particularly through Extended Mind Theory.
17:04:05 From Mark Bernstein : Pertinent to this problem (and an entertaining read): McPhee, J. 2013. “Structure: beyond the picnic table crisis”. The New Yorker. January 14, 2013. Reprinted in McPhee, J. 2017 Draft no. 4 : on the writing process. Farrar, Straus and Giroux.
17:04:24 From Mark Anderson : Currently reading about early historical attempts at indexing. Nice to see paper cut and paste is *still* not obsolete. 🙂
17:04:28 From Mark Carranza : Got to go as well. I’ll see if I can get out of bed at 2am…
17:04:37 From Alain Marsily / : Alain Marsily, Belgium. Working a new app ( – The all-in-one communication tool for your notes, files, presentations and media). A new way to (co)create, publish and update your content to your audience (in a few words). Beta will be available in a few weeks/early next year. contact : Private demo on request.
17:04:52 From Mark Carranza :,
17:06:17 From Peter Wasilko : Peter J. Wasilko <> <>  — Researching University Futures <> World’s Fairs, and Prototype Communities of Tomorrow; also deeply into End User Programming, Tools for Thought, and Collaborative OPACs.
17:07:38 From Peter Wasilko : I am particularly interested in tooling for Literate Programming as well.
17:09:16 From David Felsmann : Have to run as well: Thanks everyone! Contact and playing with the Napkin prototype ➡️ ❤️🧠🚀
17:09:24 From Frode Hegland : Later! :-)
17:09:51 From Mark Bernstein : Mark Bernstein ( Hypertext research, designer of Tinderbox, and working on the intellectual history of hypertext.
17:10:40 From Peter Wasilko : I swear by Tinderbox as the ultimate meta-structured-content-editor.
17:10:55 From Alain Marsily / : I suggest to take a look to Liquidtext
17:10:58 From Pol Baladas/ : Pol Baladas, founder at where we rethink how people interact with tools, computers and ideas. A Lab + Product company combining Engelbart’s ACR + PARC philosophies.
17:11:09 From Mark Anderson : FWIW, I’m also a long-time Tinderbox user.
17:11:25 From Frode Hegland : Yes LiquidText is brilliant work by Craig Tashman, really interesting
17:11:28 From Brandel Zachernuk : Thank you, this is an amazing symposium and I’ll be joining tomorrow and future office hours. I look forward to continuing all of these threads!
17:11:35 From Frode Hegland : :-)
17:11:43 From Rafael Nepô : Cheers!
17:12:26 From Pol Baladas/ : At we recently released Fermat, a computational space to organize your thoughts & create composable tools without technical knowledge (modern hypercard with end-user programming). Try it:
17:14:02 From Rafael Nepô : I love how David modularised the whole book.
17:14:10 From Peter Wasilko : points to a page trying to sell the domain
17:14:23 From Eric Rangell : Ted Nelson believed ZZstructures (orthogonal connected dimensions) could subsume all other structures.  I’m trying to envision if it could be an interoperability layer while exploring other tech like GraphML
17:14:35 From Peter Wasilko : Oops, my bad, I had a typo in it
17:14:42 From Peter Wasilko : The link works.
17:15:26 From Rafael Nepô : I watched it because of Frode’s weekly mentioning. :)
17:16:01 From Daniel Norman : I think it’s critically important to think about data locality and freedom of exchange. A significant fraction of our sensemaking difficulties follow from siloization of data.
17:16:26 From Luc Beaudoin : @daniel, that’s the major problem I’m addressing too
17:17:10 From Daniel Norman : @luc how so?
17:17:22 From Luc Beaudoin :
17:17:45 From Luc Beaudoin : also
17:17:47 From Daniel Norman : Will check it out.
17:17:52 From Luc Beaudoin : last year’s FoT volume
17:18:48 From Karl Hebenstreit Jr : Francis Heylighen:  Stigmergy & … |.
17:18:50 From Daniel Norman : (I’m eager to engage with folks on semantic and data locality fragmentation)
17:19:35 From Alain Marsily / : @Daniel… in Quidzi, we have a Spotify philosophy… anyone can pick part(s) of anyone content (if authorized) and add it to his playlist.
17:20:46 From Luc Beaudoin : URL of that video
17:20:49 From Luc Beaudoin : ?
17:21:17 From Eric Rangell : Decentralized web tech automatically replicates changes between publishers and subscribers and allows subscribers to seed chosen data.
17:24:28 From Eric Rangell : Dweb addresses are permanent links to content, wherever it lives
17:25:44 From Alain Marsily / : @wendy… please contact me. Would be pleased to solve your « story » of researches … that’s exactly what Quidzi is doing 😉
17:26:12 From Eric Rangell : I envision Wendy having a virtual museum where people navigate their own paths through all the historical material.
17:26:15 From Barrie Robinson : Super interested in exploring the potential of some of the projects discussed today working for specific (and narrower) use cases and clients.
17:26:42 From Barrie Robinson :
17:27:01 From Eric Rangell : Combined with curated tours of the material as starting points for exploration
17:27:35 From Sam Winston :
17:28:20 From Eric Rangell : Dweb enables local browsing of your replicated copies
17:29:26 From David De Roure : A hypertext of hypertext?
17:29:59 From Eric Rangell : Multi writer tech allows people other than the author to edit their copies and use rebasing to merge their changes
17:30:35 From Daniel Norman : A book/document is an artisanally crafted message broadcast to recipients as yet unknown within a larger knowledge graph rooted in meatspace
17:30:57 From Duke Crawford : thanks all! :) hasta manana
17:31:38 From Ismail Serageldin  To  Frode Hegland(privately) : Sorry to leave this very interesting conversation, but it is now 21/2 hours since the start and i really have to go.  Bravo  and congratulations Frode… Really gets better and better!  Ismail Serageldin
17:31:50 From Frode Hegland  To  Ismail Serageldin(privately) : Thanks and send the intro!!!!
17:31:51 From Frode Hegland  To  Ismail Serageldin(privately) : :-)
17:32:34 From Eric Rangell : Translation of transcopyright materials
17:32:54 From Mark Anderson : Here are some exploratory visualisations arising out of the weekly FoT meetings. This relates to some of what Frode was just described.
17:33:41 From Luc Beaudoin : beyond truth: [CUP’A and The Future of Text: On Assessing and Selecting Information – CogZest]( (My chapter in v.2)
17:33:42 From Daniel Norman : Truth: A continuously convergent ontological construct moderated by civilization.
17:33:48 From Luc Beaudoin : (but I’m a realist.)
17:34:07 From Eric Rangell : Emulators save old docs
17:34:30 From Daniel Norman : (Or divergent 😬)
17:35:04 From Luc Beaudoin : a thought on visual meta: another approach is to have one’s own annotation schemas
17:35:13 From Barrie Robinson : Who is the individual with the brilliant hieroglyphic background? David?
17:35:23 From Jack Park :
17:35:39 From Bob Horn : contact…
17:35:58 From Wendy Hall : My husband has been wine buying today. We’re Wie tasting tonight :-)
17:36:04 From Rafael Nepô : You can also follow updates from the Future of Text Community on Instagram and Twitter
17:36:05 From Rafael Nepô :
17:36:10 From Luc Beaudoin : i.e., rather than wait for new standards, do it oneself. I articulated that in Cognitive Productivity books
17:36:11 From Rafael Nepô :
17:37:02 From Luc Beaudoin : rather than “rather than” , “in addition to”
17:37:44 From Barrie Robinson : This is great, and future of text “and everything” is a great idea, but where this really matters is in fields which are not inherently tech savvy. Local gov for example. How do we get good tech into use?
17:38:14 From Daniel Norman : Link?
17:38:43 From Peter Wasilko : We can roll our own!
17:39:07 From Peter Wasilko : There is nothing wrong with a little Yak Shaving.
17:39:12 From Jean-Francois Vallee : Thank you for these enlightening conversations!
17:39:14 From Luc Beaudoin : great meeting, thank you all!
17:39:33 From Sam Winston : That you all.. really interesting …
17:39:37 From Rafael Nepô :
17:39:47 From Peter Wasilko : Thanks all, for the presentations and side chat!
17:39:52 From Luc Beaudoin : format of tomorrow’s meeting?
17:39:52 From Eric Rangell : There are opportunities for local community/neighborhood knowledge sharing, preservation, sense making.
17:39:58 From Sam Winston :
17:40:04 From Mark Anderson : Mark Anderson :
17:40:05 From Jonathan Finn / Sibelius : Re Frode’s father’s ideas on truth/arguments. Ludwig Wittgenstein’s advice to a colleague who’d got caught up in a frustrating philosophical argument with someone: “Perhasp you made the mistake of disagreeing with what he said.” i.e. then they’d be forced to do something deeper, find out where their assumptions diverged.
17:40:08 From Keith Martin : A list of attendees, for those who are happy sharing this? I’m
17:40:19 From Wendy Hall : Lovely to see so many old friends on the call today
17:40:22 From David De Roure : David De Roure <>
17:40:44 From David Price : Thank you, everyone!
17:40:49 From Barrie Robinson : Thanks all
17:40:54 From Alain Marsily / :
17:41:01 From Eric Rangell : Thanks all for this great event
17:41:03 From Conor : Thank you!
17:41:06 From David De Roure : Thanks everyone! Great to see you.
17:41:07 From Luc Beaudoin : please feel anyone to get in touch 🙂
17:41:09 From Brendan Langen : a wonderful time today. will be reaching out to many of you as it ties to my own research in individual <> collective synthesis.
17:41:12 From Alain Marsily / : Great event ? Tks
17:41:12 From Luc Beaudoin : (BC, Canada, wet place)
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